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Dr. Ramtin Serajiantehrani University Of Texas at Arlington

Narrator:

Looking to expand his own knowledge of pipe reline and infrastructure rehabilitation, Brett Eckart embarks on the journey into the no day construction world, while interviewing experts in all facets of the industry. Hoping to find answers here is Brett Eckart with reline Unknown.

Brett Ekart:

In this reline Unknown podcast, I made my way down to the University of Texas Arlington, and sat down with a guy way smarter than me. Dr. Ramtin just finished up his PhD dissertation focused around determining financial and environmental costs associated with spray applied pipe linings, cured in place pipe, and slip lining in large diameter culverts. This episode's a lot longer than a few of our other podcasts, but it's packed with great information. Take a listen.

Brett Ekart:

So I'm sitting here with Dr. Ramtin, doctor as of December of 2019, which is pretty awesome, at the Center for Underground Infrastructure Research and Education, Curie. I found Dr. Ramtin on LinkedIn. He was discussing his PhD, and his PhD, revolved around the relined trenches rehab industry. And so I reached out to him and was like, "Hey, I'm super interested in learning more about infrastructure and the relined technologies that are out there. Would you be interested in sitting down with me, and explaining to me your research, and giving me your two cents?" and he obliged, which I appreciate your time. Thanks for taking the time.

Dr. Ramtin:

Thank you.

Brett Ekart:

And this should be a fun podcast. He's going to kind of give us some of his research, go through and discuss what his PhD and his last 13 years of college has revolved around. And we're going to get into a little bit, so thank you, Ramtin.

Dr. Ramtin:

Thank you.

Brett Ekart:

Thank you for taking the time. So first question, just give me a little bit of background on you and how we got to this point today, and how you got involved in the reline industry, please.

Dr. Ramtin:

Hello, Brett. It was my pleasure, when you contacted me. I was so interested at that time. I recently graduated. I posted my graduation, actually pictures, and along with my title of the dissertation. So as you said, you contacted me and I was so happy that actually you were the first person that showed your interest to my dissertation, rather than those people that I mean everyday I working with.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

So I'm glad to have you here. And it is my pleasure to have interview with you. I came to UTA, University of Texas at Arlington in 2014, to continue my PhD in urban planning. After one semester, I found that since my background was architecture, I thought that maybe around planning is more related, but after six months, I found that no, this is not my place. At that time, fortunately, I had the chance to get to know Dr. Mo Najafi, my advisor, my supervisor. Without his support, I couldn't end up to this position, to this situation at the time now. I need to thank Dr. Mohammad Najafi, I come to this industry because of him. He is one of the most well known person in this industry. He has published many books like "Trenchless Technology Pipeline". And he gave me the approach opportunity to work on one of the research that he got, it was the underground freight transportation at that time, in 2015. I started my PhD in civil engineering by working under his supervision in underground freight transportation, which was the feasibility study to find the road from Houston to Dallas.

Dr. Ramtin:

Long story short, I ended up to trenchless technology because of the recent project that we have, which is to find a design methodology and of the spray-applied pipeliners, SAPLs, which is lead by Ohio DOT and along with others, six DOTs, total seven DOTs, are involved, as Ohio DOT, Florida DOT, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Delaware, New York State, are involved.

Brett Ekart:

So real quick, the reason that all of these DOTS are involved in this research is because they're trying to get a better understanding of-

Dr. Ramtin:

SAPL.

Brett Ekart:

Of just that product, or just of the reline and the rehab industry as a whole. I mean when these DOTs sponsor research, are they just trying to figure out, "Just give us your guys' opinion on?"

Dr. Ramtin:

On SAPL.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

So technically SAPL is one of the most recent reline for large diameter culverts.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And because of that, they wanted to find if it is structural or not. How about the cost? How about the environmental impact? How about the, if we can use, because there are some design equation for other reline, and they wanted to see if they can use those design equation to design SAPL as well or not. Because now there's no design equation, and there is no specific, I mean, exact specification for SAPL. So they wanted to see how do they need to develop, to go more details to SAPL.

Brett Ekart:

Is it because it's a fairly new technology?

Dr. Ramtin:

New technology...

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

New companies are out there and they claimed that, for example, their materials are structural, because if that's the case, each reline has its own advantages and disadvantages.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

There are lots of advantages for a SAPL that's those DOTs ended up to invest, and I mean to do their research, or ask us to do the research, to find if it is, these advantages that those new companies are claiming that SAPL has, if it really has or not.

Brett Ekart:

Okay, that makes sense.

Dr. Ramtin:

And to be able to compare it to other alternatives, but like CIPP and slip lining, which all of these three can be adjust for reline and rehab of a large diameter. And you know that there are lots of culverts, deteriorated culverts, out there in the US. So technically they wanted to see the options that they have later on if they wanted to choose. Because mostly the slip lining is the first one, after that CIPP came, and SAPL is pretty much new.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And so they wanted to see the exact options that they have, based on the cost, as I said, the structure thing, and environmental thing, everything.

Brett Ekart:

So they wanted like an unbiased opinion.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly.

Brett Ekart:

And that's why they came to you guys here at University of Texas Arlington, because they know that you don't really have a horse in the race.

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah, we are not biased.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah. You guys are a strictly a research facility and they said, "Tell us what your opinion is on these products."

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And we do the tests over there. We put the CMP, corrugated metal pipe, we deteriorated, then do the reline, then put the load to see how much load, how much the load capacity it has. There are lots of tasks in this research, and one of the task was to find and analyze the construction costs.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

So in my dissertation, I made it a bit more wider, more broader, and include the environmental impact as well. So now the topic of my dissertation ended up to construction and environmental cost analysis of three major alternatives that we have in to reline the culverts, large diameter culverts.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And when I say large diameter culverts, I mean, from 30 inches pipe to 108 inches pipe.

Brett Ekart:

30 to 108.

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah. 30 to 108 is the scope of my work. And because all of the data are coming from 30 to 108 inches. So since I found that maybe focusing on construction costs is not enough, I added environmental costs as well. So we will see how environmental cause has its own impact when we wanted to make a decision, because usually we just go for construction costs.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

And even for construction costs, we didn't have any exact view before my study to see where exactly the SAPL is going to stand within CIPP and slip lining. So I try to have an overview, to be able to compare the cost first, and then environmental impact or environmental costs.

Brett Ekart:

And when we were talking earlier, when you compare construction costs, those numbers are a little bit easier to define, excavator man hours, product costs. But when you try and put a number around environmental costs is tougher, right?

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah.

Brett Ekart:

That's kind of where you have to kind of extrapolate that out over generations of time and say, "All right, construction costs are pretty hard costs." Environmental costs are open to interpretation to a certain extent, I assume? Or no?

Dr. Ramtin:

There are two ways to figure out the environmental cost. Either you need to go to the job site and do the measurement, the actual measurement, and see the environmental impact.

Brett Ekart:

Like CO2.

Dr. Ramtin:

CO2, acidification, eco toxicity, every, because we have 10 environmental impact.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And if you wanted to do that, you need to do some measurement at the job site. What I have done was to assume for each diameter, and for each actually rehab, I did some like fuel operations stuff, and cost estimating, and scheduling. I ended up to material in process, and then I will show you how by using a similar pro analysis, which is a software, after I generated some numbers from the literature review, and from the industry specification, from here and there, I generated some numbers, and then plug those numbers into the software, and the software analyze those numbers. And the output was the environmental impact based on the material and the process that I defined for the software.

Dr. Ramtin:

So at the end, the output was, bunch of numbers that was output of the, for example, let's say SAPL installation or CIPP installation for exact diameter. Then I, based on the cost of each impact, multiplication of cost of each impact to the amount of the cost, to the quantity of the material, the output that I found, those emissions, you could find the environmental costs.

Brett Ekart:

So you could put a value to it?

Dr. Ramtin:

To be able to add up to construction costs, because at the end we wanted to see the proportion of environmental, if we add it to construction, and have a whole thing. So the piece of the environmental costs to the whole cost.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah. That's why we could have a number of environmental costs rather than, for example, if I tell you the environmental impact of CIPP is one kilograms CO2, you have no idea about what I'm talking about.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

But if I say the environmental cost of those, that for example CIPP installation, is $2,000.00, then you can have-

Brett Ekart:

You can put like a value to it in your brain when you sit there and you consider various options of reline.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly. Exactly.

Brett Ekart:

So I want to dive into the research a little bit, but I want everybody to know, maybe you discussed this in the first slide or two, but you spent four years doing this, five years, on just this specific, on your PhD.

Dr. Ramtin:

This specificity? One and a half, two years.

Brett Ekart:

And then you had your master's before that. And you researched 400 and how many, was it 400 and-

Dr. Ramtin:

417 data points.

Brett Ekart:

So 417 different reline.

Dr. Ramtin:

Different reline, exactly.

Brett Ekart:

Projects.

Dr. Ramtin:

Projects.

Brett Ekart:

So this research is super in depth. It's super interesting, and I can't wait to go through it. So, go ahead, and let's kind of take a look at what you came up with.

Dr. Ramtin:

I prepare introduction data, a little bit talking about the data distribution, then construction costs, and environmental cost analysis. I mostly wanted to show you the result, and then discussion, and conclusion based on that. I wanted to say the scope of the work was focusing on three type of rehab, as we talk. These are the three main type of rehab that we have for large diameter culverts.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

So the SAPL, which is trenchless renewal method consists of a spring, and can be two different material, can be cementitious and polymer, inside of the surface of host pipe, existing pipe.

Brett Ekart:

Is there one that's more common in there? The cementitious or the polymer?

Dr. Ramtin:

The cementitious is bolded because all of the data are coming from cementitious for SAPL.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And cementitious is more widely use. Polymeric is a bit more new, recent product, but cementitious is the one that has been used for several years.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

And that's why it was more data for cementitious rather than polymeric material. For CIPP, which is trenchless again renewal method that a resin impregnated fabric tool, which is usually made of polyester or fiberglass reinforced, is inserted, cured inside an existing pipe. And again, polyester is bolded because the data that I have are based on the unsaturated polyester CIPP. Not fiberglass reinforced. And the slip lining, which is trenchless renewal method of placing a new pipeline of a smaller diameter into the host pipe. And it can be PVC, HDPE and FRP, which is fiberglass reinforced plastic. My data again for slip lining, and usually because for large diameter, they mostly use HDPE. And the data that I have is based on these materials. So we have cementitious SAPL, polyester CIPP, and HDPE is slip lining to compare these together.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

In other words, if you ask about PVC and compare to polyester CIPP, it is not in the scope of my work.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

If you "How about the polymeric SAPL?" I don't know. My research is based on the data that I had, which was based on these three main materials, of these three main rehab thing.

Dr. Ramtin:

And also we have three type of costs associated to each reline. We have construction costs, which is the cost that everybody knows, as we were talking about.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

We can somehow identify that cost, but even for construction costs, we needed to make it exactly what costs we are looking for. If we are looking for a direct cost or indirect cost, or whose costs. So the best cost that we could find is the bid tab, the most accurate cost that we can call it construction costs.

Brett Ekart:

And that's because the owner incurs that cost. I mean that's the cost to the owner.

Dr. Ramtin:

To the owner.

Brett Ekart:

Of the project, regardless of whether the installer is making money, or not making money or whatever.

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah.

Brett Ekart:

But that's the cost to the owner.

Dr. Ramtin:

To the owner. This is in bid tabs, I chose lowest be their costs, which is the vendor cost, the contractor costs. So that cost, there are some advantages of choosing that cost. The contractor usually put direct and indirect cost to that bid tab, to that bid I mean, to that bid item. It would be easier to compare all the costs, like apple by apple, because if you want to go to other costs, it would harder to compare all of the costs together. But if the baseline was the construction cost, based on the bid tabs, we could say, "Okay, the bid tabs. It is what it is."

Brett Ekart:

Yeah

Dr. Ramtin:

Bid tabs is, the winner, the contractor cost of each project is the contractor costs, is included direct and indirect costs. So it cannot be that much manipulated. You would say it is not accurate, I'd agree. Because if I could find the final cost, which was hard and I couldn't find, I would go for that, the final cost, the actual cost that the contractor is getting paid.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

However, I mean that information was not that much available.

Brett Ekart:

Well, I like that method because it's the owner that's incurring the costs.

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah.

Brett Ekart:

And CIPP, most of these methods are not self-performing. Somebody has to perform the work.

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah.

Brett Ekart:

And so to me, that makes the most sense because that is the cost to the owner, which is what we are always discussing in the relining trenchless industry, is the cost? What's the cost to the owner of the pipe?

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

So I chose bid tab for each reline, each project, those 417 data that we were talking about, all of them are bid tab. And how about the environmental cost? The dollar value of emissions associated to the project from material production to the end of the project design life is called environmental costs. Again, we needed to have a baseline, and make it clear what exactly we mean by when we're talking about environmental costs. There are two ways, two approaches, to find the environmental impact. Either we need to go to the job site and find the environmental impact by doing some actual measurement. Or what I have done was to generate some data, do some cost estimating, scheduling, field ops, and at the end find the quantity of the materials that is needed for each of the reline, along with the equipment and installation fees and installation requirement that we call it process, the process that we need to do to somehow cure that material, or insert that material, if it is slip lining to the host pipe.

Dr. Ramtin:

So we have two major components to be able to find the environmental cost. We need to have material quantity and equipment quantity. That we call it process. So material and process are two main categories that we generated based on the literature review, and based on the specification of the industry so we could end up to some numbers. Then there is a software to do that-

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:22:04]

Dr. Ramtin:

Software to do that. It is the most well known software in a pipeline and infrastructure to find the environmental impact, which is called SimaPro. SimaPro is not going to give you the quantity of the material. We needed to find the quantity of the material and quantity of the equipment. Then how much electricity, I'm going to show you how much electricity is needed to do the job, how much the fuel is needed to do the job. How many equipment, what kind of equipment? All of these, we generated the quantity of those numbers, then we plug into the software, do the analysis with the software and the output of the software of the SimaPro was the amounts of the- there are 10 different category of environmental impact. From global warming, the CO2 is representing it to acidification, carcinogenic emissions, non-carcinogenic emission, equal toxicity. I'm going to show you.

Dr. Ramtin:

Basically the output of the SimaPro is the amount of these 10 impact categories. And then we needed to find the dollar value of each impact. If the CO2 emission, or CO2 equivalent emission, is 10 kilogram, how much the cost of that 10 kilogram of CO2? There is a cost associated to that emission. Just multiple the cost to the emission, we could end up to the final dollar value of that environmental emission. If we add the dollar value of all of these 10 emissions, it would be final costs, which represent the environmental cost of the specific project. Which can be for example, 30 CIPP, 30 inches of..

Brett Ekart:

A hundred feet, 200 feet?

Dr. Ramtin:

Actually, the number is going to be per linear foot.

Brett Ekart:

And you would just extrapolate that.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly. You need to adjust the number based on the linear foot that you have.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

The social cost that in this project, which is all costs to the society, because trenchless, usually we don't consider social cost for trenchless. We did some literature review. We found that the social cost is less than 5%, within 3% to 5% of each project. And for trenchless, because we don't do that much excavation, or we don't disturb the traffic, we don't use a detour. We usually did the period of the time that we do the trenchless technology rehab is not one year, two years. It's quick. It's pretty quick.

Brett Ekart:

That's one of the selling points of trenchless and the industry is the social cost is very minimal.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly.

Brett Ekart:

Versus say, open cut, it minimizes that. That's one of the bigger selling points.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly. This is the reason that now the trenchless technology is getting more well known because they minimize the traffic disruption, minimize the impact that they have. That for example, open cut, the conventional method, has to the society, to the environment, rather than a trenchless technology, the shortened time, rather than six to eight to 10 months to place a new pipe, they can do it very quick. For example, SAPL or CIPP both can be done in three to five days.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah. Out of curiosity on the social costs, when you say between three and 5% of the total project costs, is that similar across the board, whether it's for all different three types that you analyzed? Did you have a fixed three to 5% that crossed the board for each project?

Dr. Ramtin:

In my research, I assume the social costs can be negligible based on the literature review. And in literature review, to answer your question, they didn't emphasize exactly what kind of rehab do you have 3% or 3.5%. There is not that much study out there for social costs. But in average, they concluded that social costs is three to 5%. So it was hard to find the data for that. It was hard to include that.

Brett Ekart:

If it's the same across the board, then there's no real- it doesn't have any bearing on

Dr. Ramtin:

Other costs. Right.

Brett Ekart:

Okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

That's why I wanted to show you that there is a cost for social costs, but for my dissertation and my research, I excluded social costs. I assumed that it can be negligible.

Brett Ekart:

That makes sense.

Dr. Ramtin:

I ended up to do the analysis for environmental and construction costs for this dissertation and my research.

Dr. Ramtin:

I gathered- this is the data, the raw data that I could find. The project ID, the owner, the contractor location. I had 417 rows that we can see a sample of it here, the host pipe shape, host pipe blend, diameter, trenchless method, the cost, the total cost. Then I needed to do some analysis to find out what exactly- how the data is distributed among the duties. That's 417 data. I ended up to 401 data, 16 data points either it was missing value, or it was- I found that it is not accurate, some problem was in those data. At the end, the analyze was based on 401 data point. The distribution was 47. The most data was coming from sliplining. After that CIPP included 37%. Sliplining, due to the more recent trenchless rehab as we discussed at the first, because it is more recent rather than CIPP and sliplining.

Dr. Ramtin:

Sliplining is the one that has been done for many years. That's why sliplining consists about 50% of our data, rather than, let's say, a SAPL which is 15%. Again, we are talking about cementitious, SAPL, polyester, CIPP and SGP as sliplining. The distribution amount, the DOT, the most data were coming from New York state DOT then Ohio DOT contributed mostly to the data, then Minnesota, Pennsylvania, North Carolina. And we had a few data from Florida DOT and Delaware DOT.

Dr. Ramtin:

Data are coming from 2012 and before, which is 2012, 2011, and 2010. 52 projects were for those years. Then 2013, 14 to 2019, the distribution of the data, we can see it here from 2012 and before, which is from 2010, mostly to 2019. The most data are coming from 2018, which is 95 projects. Many projects where the data was not out because they are under projects. Somehow they didn't really use the data for 2019 project. Otherwise we may have more data for 2019.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah, I was wondering as I was looking at your schedule of projects, just because as the years go by, there's more projects that need rehab. And as the years go by, you can start to see it starts to ramp up. And what I've always found interesting about the trenchless and reline industries, you might bid a project in 2018, they might not actually do the project until 2019. It seems like there's such a long lead time on projects. So I could see how it could be hard to get the research back. If they may have put it out to bid and they may have awarded the bidder, but rain, some sort of "mother nature" event, stops the project from happening or happening at a certain time that they thought it was going to happen. Or the funds may not have been available to finish the project. So that makes sense. Cause I would think that in 2019, the total number of projects will be even more than 18.

Dr. Ramtin:

I think it is. But if you couldn't find the data or the reason was something else rather than- Yeah because as we see the trend shows that, as you said, as we go further, people can understand and get to know the benefit of having trenchless technology rather than- if it is available, because it depends. In some situation we can not go for trenchless technology. But if we can go for trenchless technology, it is better to go. That's why we can see the number of the project is, even exponentially, is increasing in terms of the, when we go through the time, rather than the other, for example, metal rather than trenchless technology. So if you have less data for 2019, the reason can be many thing. As I said, the information is not still out. But for sure if this project had been done in 2020, we could have more data from 2019. So this is the distribution of the data in terms of the time.

Dr. Ramtin:

I wanted to show you the results because after- and before going through the result, I wanted to tell you how did we do some analysis of the data. As I said, we had 417 data. I tried to find the missing value as much as I could. I tried to not ignore and not remove any data as much as I could. Sometimes we had B tab, but we didn't have diameter of that B tab. Sometimes we had diameter, we didn't have B tab. Technically we try to keep as much data that we could. And then for each diameter do the analysis, extract the outlier, try to see if the data is the standard or not. If the data was the standard then we checked the normalization. We needed to normalize the data because there are some factors that involve if we wanted to do the data analysis.

Dr. Ramtin:

I wanted to let you know, I did all of these steps. I went through all of these data analysis steps before getting through the final result. And at the end I do some mean construction cost analysis, which means that for each diameter the average cost is representing as a data point. So for each diameter we average all the costs that we have had, and we ended up to the chart that we can see here for each diameter for each rehab trenchless technology. For CIPP, sliplining, and SAP are from 30 inches to 108. It is one of the most comprehensive chart in terms of the cost that was not outside before. And it is the result of my dissertation. We can see the interesting part here is there is a milestone, I would say there is a threshold at 42 inches that something happened.

Dr. Ramtin:

First, SAPL is- the trends shows that it has the higher cost rather than CIPP and sliplining. Let's just keep the SAPL out first and let's talk about CIPP and sliplining. Until 42 inches, sliplining has more cost rather than CIPP, but at 42 inches sliplining has less cost rather than CIPP. In other words, from 42 inches to 108 inches CIPP, and sliplining, and SAPL, they had the constant trend compared together. SAPL has the highest cost, then CIPP, then sliplining. Sliplining has the lowest costs for all diameter from 42 inches to 108 inches. However, in 30 inches and 42 inches sliplining has more cost. It means that if we are talking about small diameter, there is a need to do the analysis for small diameters if you want to see the comparison of a sliplining and CIPP.

Dr. Ramtin:

But based on the scope of the work that we just focused on, 30 inches to 108 inches, at least for 30, 36, and 42, we can see that CIPP has least cost rather than sliplining. Another observation that we could have here is the difference of the construction cost in very large diameter between sliplining and SAPL. We can see here SAPL, which is- the gray one representing SAPL, the orange one representing sliplining, and the blue one is CIPP. We can see sliplining has almost half a cost rather than SAPL in 90 inches. And a bit more than half a cost for 96 inches, same for 102 inches. We needed to do some sensitivity analysis to find what is at those critical points, critical diameters in terms of difference of the cost of SAPL, CIPP, and sliplining. What are the diameters that the cost has huge difference between SAPL, CIPP, and sliplining? And what are the diameters that the costs are not that much significant?

Dr. Ramtin:

The difference of the costs are not that much significant.

Brett Ekart:

So real quick, when you did this chart, when you went back in and compiled all the data and built this chart, did it surprise you? Was there something that you didn't expect?

Dr. Ramtin:

Yeah, that's a good question. I, by myself, expected to see the SAPL to rank as the lowest cost rather than highest cost.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

It can be many reason for that graph. We needed to digest this chart rather than just by looking at it and say, "Okay SAPL has the highest cost." There are some reasons behind it. Let's say as we see at the first, the SAPL data was the lowest portion of the data that we have had. Just 16% of the data are coming from SAPL. It means that the distribution, in terms of the diameter, are not like sliplining. If we had more data for SAPL, if we had more project, if the project let's say, for example, for many of the duties we couldn't find big number of SAPL. We just had like two, three number of SAPL for two, three diameters. Many of the bar chart that we can see here are coming from two, three data points.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

Which cannot represent the actual costs of those diameters. The main reason in my point of view was the lack of that much data and lack of many projects that have been done these years. Because SAPL the most data were coming from 2015, 16, mostly 18. But sliplining there were many data for 2010. Although we adjusted all the numbers from 2010 to 2019, because all the numbers that we can see here, they are based on 2019 dollar value. If, for example, the cost for sliplining 30 inches in 2010 was $200. We didn't put $200 here. We adjusted to 2019 dollars. It could be, for example, to %250.

Brett Ekart:

The value of money has definitely plays a role.

Dr. Ramtin:

We just adjusted that. But what I wanted to say is, even though we adjusted the dollar value, but the cost of doing trenchless technology in 2010, rather than just inflation rates. To adjust the cost- to adjust the dollar value, there were more factors involved to do the job in 2010, rather than 2019.

Brett Ekart:

Yeah.

Dr. Ramtin:

I would say because the most data of SAPL are in 2018 and many of the data for sliplining and CIPP were for 2010 to 2016. We had some data for 2018, 19 as well, but mostly the data for sliplining and CIPP were coming from 2010 to 2016. I was actually discussing with one of the industry person. He asked about the time of the data that I had in my dissertation. I said from 2010 to 2019. He said in 2015, something happened in trenchless industry that changed the cost dramatically. It has extreme impact to the cost. We didn't have time to go to the details and discuss about it, but those reasons can be added up to this result that SAPL has significantly more cost rather than sliplining and CIPP.

Dr. Ramtin:

However, again, the sensitivity analysis would give us more view and more perspective about the critical points. Because at the end, we need to see the alternatives that we have for each diameter. If let's say for all 108 inches, if there is- actually, I need, again, to emphasize that only cost is not, we discuss it before we started the interview, that the cost is like a piece of puzzle. Decision making thing. So the cost is not the whole thing. We don't always go for cost, but if everything is structurally- how much area that we have, the soil condition, the water table-

Brett Ekart:

Structure of the existing host pipe-

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly. How deteriorated it is, the hosepipe. Many factors are involved. But if everything is same, if all these three options are available, then we go to the cost to see the cost comparison. At that point, we need to see that those critical points, those critical diameters that we need to do some more investigation to find the lowest cost, if we wanted to have the lowest cost. And also the environmental costs that we will see later.

Brett Ekart:

Real quick, Mike, my question, and this is more a statement than a question, but when I look at this, my thought- SAPL

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:44:04]

Brett Ekart:

When I look at this, my thought, with SAPL being the newest technology. And anytime there's a new technology, it's inherently more expensive. It's like an iPhone 11 pro max versus an iPhone 8. Right? Does that play any role?

Dr. Ramtin:

Not necessarily, because usually they claim that SAPL is, I mean, it has lower costs. That's why I told you that it surprised me because I expected to see the SAPL has the lowest cost other than slip lining and CIPP, because the difference between realign and the example that you made it like an iPhone is that iPhone give you more capability and more features. But in this industry, the main thing is to lower the cost to be able to make it more widely used to facilitate the usage of that reline rather than replacing the pipe.

Dr. Ramtin:

So not necessarily because of emergency,

Brett Ekart:

It's interesting, I didn't think about it that way. I just was thinking, well, maybe it's new technology, there's not as many people understand how to do it. So there's a special, there's only a certain number of contractors that are even capable of doing it, which then increased the cost. Versus, say, a slip line or another project that's been around for awhile and they may have a bunch of contractors that know how to perform that project. So the bid tabs might be more competitive or something along those lines. That was just where I was going with it, but what you're saying makes more sense in the fact that technology's just lower cost.

Dr. Ramtin:

yeah, because they claim that it is cheaper to lower the cost... Easier to do their job quicker, actually easier, quicker. These are the advantages of SAPL and you don't need to do to insert them in other piping in because CIPP and slip lining and one way or another, they put another pipe inside the pipe. But in SAPL, they spray the material inside the pipe. It is more quick. It doesn't need more space, more area to do their job. So there are some advantages...

Brett Ekart:

So less social costs, less social...

Dr. Ramtin:

..to reduce the social cost. And also, for example, for the slip lining, although we don't have the excavation in portion of open cart that we do the excavation, the whole thing, but for shaft to place the equipment to push the slip lining HDPE pipe to the host pipe steel, we need to have excavation, but for SAP, we don't need those things. We don't need that much area. We don't need that special equipment. The material matters for sure. But again, I expected to have, to see the SAPL. Actually, my hypothesis was the SAPL construction costs is the lowest cost rather than CIPP and slip lining.

Brett Ekart:

Interesting.

Dr. Ramtin:

But actually I rejected that, so I ended up to see the SAPL has the highest cost rather than CIPP and slip lining, which again, can be, can have many reasons behind this highest cost rather than other to trenchless renewal. So let me go through the sensitivity analysis for each reline to another one, we needed to do the sensitivity analysis. We saw that from a slip lining and the CIPP, this is the mean cost for 72 inches and mean construction costs for 72 inches for a slip lining, the orange one, representing slip lining. The blue one is CIPP. What this chart that, we call it Tornado Chart, what this chart is giving us. It tells us that in small diameter, actually we are talking about large diameter, but in a small portion of that large diameter, which is 30 inches, 36 inches, 42 inches, we can see these numbers.

Dr. Ramtin:

The difference of CIPP and slip lining is the lowest in, it is in the lowest level. In other words,

Brett Ekart:

On a cost per foot basis.

Dr. Ramtin:

Per linear foot.

Brett Ekart:

Per linear foot, okay.

Dr. Ramtin:

So the cost per linear foot for 30 inches, 42 inches and 54 inches. The difference between CIPP and slip lining is not that much. It means that we need to consider other factors rather than the cost, because the cost is pretty much similar in 30 inches, 42 inches, or 54 inches. But in large diameter, mostly large diameter, 78, 66 and 72. In these three diameters, the difference between CIPP and slip lining is huge. In other words, we can see CIPP is almost one and half times rather than slip lining is 72 inches. This is 640 something rather than a slip lining, which is 400. So in those costs, either we need to say, okay, without any other consideration, if we ended up two costs, for sure we can select slip lining because slip lining has the lowest cost by far in comparison with CIPP or in 16 inches or in 78 inches.

Dr. Ramtin:

So technically, in small diameters, maybe because again, the slip lining... That the reason I wanted to discuss about the reason that there is behind these tornado charts, why in small diameter CIPP has lower costs and also, not that much difference between CIPP and slip lining and why in large diameter, slip lining by far can beat the CIPP because in large diameters, CIPP... You can imagine how much is difficult to do the cure for that much large diameter for CIPP rather than slip lining, which pretty much same. I mean, slip lining coat, man, the slip lining technology, slip lining procedure, is not changed that much with 30 inches to walk, let's say 72 inches, pretty much same, but for CIPP, if for 30 inches, we just need to want to have one truck to, I mean, one refrigerator truck, one utility truck, let's say two trucks, it would be, do their job for us.

Dr. Ramtin:

But for large diameter, when we may have, we may need to have more trucks to be able to flip the fabric to insert the fabric inside, curing the 72 inches of fabric is a big deal, but for slip lining, nothing has been changed. Again, just the equipment needs to push this HDPE. So those things can be the result of having that huge difference in terms of the cost for large diameter and it was for slip lining and CIPP. So we need to do some consideration in small diameter if we wanted to pick the option between CIPP and slip lining. Why? Because the difference is not that much. How about for SAPL and CIPP? Again, we can see for a small diameter, SAPL and CIPP, they pretty much have same numbers in terms of the costs. However, again, CIPP can win SAPL. SAPL has more cost, but in high, I mean, large diameter in 72, 60 inches in large diameters.

Dr. Ramtin:

The difference is a lot. SAPL is almost twice rather than CIPP in 66 inches. The main construction costs of SAPL in 66 is $1,000, almost $1,000 rather than CIPP, which is $480. So all.

Brett Ekart:

That's significant, that's a big difference.

Dr. Ramtin:

That's the advantage of doing sensitivity analysis to see the threshold, the diameters that we need to...

Brett Ekart:

really look at.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly, really look at it, to see, to pick up our options and for SAPL and slip lining again, somehow saying rather than 78 inches that we can see in, I mean the lower value of our cost than for example, steel here is... Oh, sorry.

Brett Ekart:

You're fine.

Dr. Ramtin:

SAPL has significantly more cost rather than the slip lining, but pretty much we can see in the comparison of SAPL and slip lining, we can see SAPL has extremely more costs. I mean, almost two and half times rather than a slip lining in 66 inches.

Dr. Ramtin:

So somehow we don't have that much headache, if you wanted to pick the option between SAPL and slip lining. Slip lining win the fight actually.

Brett Ekart:

If it's just a cost,

Dr. Ramtin:

If it is a cost. And we can see about the environmental costs. So it was the result of construction costs. Let's go to environmental cost analysis. As I said, it, I just, because it is 600 pages of my dissertation that mostly 400 pages is just the result of environmental costs for each diameter. See, we have three reline type, 14 types of diameter, 14, I mean diameter from 30 inches to 108, multiple by three, 42 analysis needed to be done to be able to have 42, actually, environmental costs at the end. So for each of them, let's say I put some samples for CIPP 30 inches to 108 inches.

Dr. Ramtin:

We assume 500 feet length of CIPP with 30 inches to 108 inches and generated the number. Let me go through one of the rules. For example, the diameter is 30 inches. The wall thickness... We had some reference for each of them, each of the quantity that we picked. If you pick 0.559 for 30 inches, that reference is this, that we can see the references for each of the numbers. Then we ended up to the total number for CIPP 30 inches. The total number is 11,788.44 for the total of these numbers. What are these numbers are? These numbers are the quantity of each of the materials. We assume that CIPP is consistent, that the major proportion of CIPP is consisting of polyester resin unsaturated styrene and silica fume. Polyester consists 62% of the total amount of these total 11,000 something.

Dr. Ramtin:

35% of the total amount is the styrene and just 3% of the total amount is silica fume. So if we applied these percentage to the total amounts, we would see the numbers here, 7,000 something, 4,000 something, and 353. These numbers are the numbers that we plug into the software to find the environmental cost of them.

Brett Ekart:

And that's per 500 feet. Linear feet.

Dr. Ramtin:

Exactly. Then at the end, when we had the numbers, we divided to 500 to have the per linear feet of each of the-

Brett Ekart:

I just wanted to make sure that there was stated it was as I was looking at the top and it was per 500 feet. So you have to back...

Dr. Ramtin:

Because you need to assume some length. Without any length, we couldn't find any result for that.

Brett Ekart:

That makes sense.

Dr. Ramtin:

So we have 30 inches to 108, all the numbers, we have same thing for SAPL and slip lining and, in case you wanted to see those numbers because all of these numbers are unique. All of these numbers are generated here for this research. It was not something that you can find it outside. Each of the numbers has their own references, has their own calculation and all of these numbers, the calculation can be found in my research and my dissertation. So I refer you to, later on, if anyone wanted to see these numbers and use it for...

Brett Ekart:

...We'll add the links to the podcast, so everybody can go in. And if anybody wants to really drill down into the details, and I'm sure people will, then they can go in and see how you got to the number that you came to.

Dr. Ramtin:

And the reason behind all of these, all of these numbers again, is explained more in my dissertation because it's not in the scope of this interview, I put the numbers, but there are some justification behind all of these numbers that we can, I mean, it can be find in my dissertation.

Dr. Ramtin:

And let's say for CIPP, for a process that they were talking about, those equipment, the transportation of the material to the job site, there is a unit that they call it a TMI or Ton-MI, which, it is representing the tonnage of the material that needed to bring to the job site within the specific mile. And we assume that all of the materials are coming from 50 miles out from the job site. So, which makes sense that, I mean, the manufacturer is within 50 miles from the job site. It can be 70, it can be 20, but we needed to assume something to do the analysis and we didn't have accurate number for each project. So we ended up to 50 miles. And for each, again, equipment, we can see each equipment. For example, the diesel electric generators said why, actually 0.003 pieces because we divided the actual hours that we need that equipment at the job site to the entire, I mean to the whole design life of that product.

Dr. Ramtin:

So if 10 hours we need that equipment and the total design life of that equipment is, let's say 1000 hours. So 10 hour divided by 1000 hour is 1%. So 1% of that equipment is the one that we needed at the job site. So we need to account that and the same for air compressor for transportation of, for a truck's refrigerator,

Brett Ekart:

It's detailed, like it's detailed. Because you wanted to get as accurate as a number as you could. I can appreciate that for sure.

Dr. Ramtin:

Thank you. And we try to account and accommodate for all of the equipment and electricity used, diesel used, as much as we could, and we generated this table because of this research. Again, you couldn't find this table outside. If you want to see the detail, how these numbers are generated, the justification and assumptions, which is very important. I mean, behind these numbers, it can be found in my research.

Dr. Ramtin:

So then we plugged these numbers to the software. This is the screenshot of the software that for CIPP 30 inches, SAPL 30 inches, slip lining 30 inches, for all of them and for all diameters later on. Each diameter for CIPP, for a slip lining for SAPL, the material quantity, the equipment quantity. And then, when we ran the analysis, we could find this impressive chart that shows the exactly emission of each of the material and process that we defined. For example, we can see here, transportation polyester resin unsaturated create the most environmental emission, rather than any other component. Or a styrene. We can see a styrene create more smog acidification, respiratory effects, fossil fuel depletion, global warming... So for each component that we defined for the software, like again, materials can be a styrene, silica fume, polyester resin, or for equipment, all the trucks that we use, it can be refrigerator truck.

Dr. Ramtin:

It can be utility truck. For each of them, we could find the emission that is emitted, that actually in the installation phase. And it is normalization because, in this graph we can see in previous graph, we couldn't find the exact number. It could just assume that everything is based on 100 and to be, to have a comparison, we need to do some normalization to find, okay, now we have the numbers, what environmental impact is the most coming from the CIPP. For example, here CIPP 30 inches, which we can see the carcinogenic is the highest impact rather than toxicity, fossil fuel or other environmental impact to the environment because of the CIPP 30 inches, then the toxicity, then fossil fuel, non carcinogenic, carcinogenic smog. We can see the, all the values. Again, I wanted to skip this to get through the numbers, the dollar value, which is more interesting.

Dr. Ramtin:

And we can see the proportion of each of the environmental impact here. Here is the results of the, all of the numbers that we have seen so far, in terms of the environmental cost. SAPL is gray, slip lining is orange, and CIPP is blue. And we can see this surprising thing here is that SAPL by far produce less environmental cause rather than a slip lining and a CIPP. So, although SAPL, even with those deficiency that we had and construction costs in terms of the data availability. But here we can see is SAPL produce less environmental costs rather than SAPL, rather than CIPP and slip lining. And CIPP and the slip lining are pretty much same. You can see it from 30 inches to 108 inches. There are, I mean, pretty much parallel and close to each other, but the slip lining, but SAPL shows its difference, its advantages rather than CIPP and slip lining.

Dr. Ramtin:

There's another reason that those DOTs or, I mean, those industry companies wanted to promote SAPL because they may knew that SAPL because everybody nowadays know about the impact of a styrene that we have in CIPP. And again, there are some CIPP product that they replace the styrene because the styrene has a significant impact to the environment. However, in my study, I included a styrene and, based on the data that I had, it shows that SAPL has, I mean, is producing the least cost in terms of environmental cause rather than SAPL, rather than CIPP and slip lining.

Brett Ekart:

So when you look at the two together, the environmental costs and the construction cost,

Dr. Ramtin:

we ended up to this.

Brett Ekart:

There you go.

Dr. Ramtin:

So if the sum of conservation and environmental cost all together, we can see the chart, the difference is getting close to each other because the first chart, which was construction cost, the SAPL was significantly higher scores has had the significantly higher scores. Then, in environmental costs, significantly lowest cost other than CIPP and slip lining. And now if we add those two figures together, we can see this chart that, although the SAPL now has, again, still more costs other than slip lining and CIPP, but we can see the difference getting, I mean, smaller, that the trend is getting more parallel and more close to each other rather than the first chart where it was significantly different again.

Brett Ekart:

So what was the biggest...

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:06:04]

Dr. Ramtin:

There's significant difference again.

Brett Ekart:

So what was the biggest one or two factors in the environmental costs that drove that big margin? Because, when you look at CIPP and slip-lining in the environmental chart, there's definitely a gap, right? It's a pretty significant gap between SAPL CIPP and slip-lining.

Brett Ekart:

So is there one or two factors that really pushed that difference or was it all of them combined that just a little bit from each, or was there one or two that were main drivers of that cost?

Dr. Ramtin:

That's a very good question. For CIPP, somehow I explain why, because of the styrene. Styrene and those trucks, because for CIPP we need refrigerator truck. We need curing truck. Two, three trucks for a small diameter, for large diameter. We may need at least four to five trucks. So that's why transportation of those truck, because they wanted to get from manufacturer.

Dr. Ramtin:

I mean, they were very aware. They are at the job site. This transportation causes some environmental impact.

Brett Ekart:

Is that one of the big drivers?

Dr. Ramtin:

I mean, transportation of those trucks was one of the big driver rather than those a styrene for CABP had the most driver to the environmental impact.

Brett Ekart:

How about slip lining?

Dr. Ramtin:

Slip lining, I would say I'm not sure, but I think again, those equipment that we needed for slip lining, we need excavation, we need to bring the material, those pipe with it, on truck. They cannot be taken. They cannot be brought if you like small truck or like those trucks for SAPL, CIPP it needed to go on one truck. Then they needed to, we needed to have a crane to place the pipe inside the shaft. We need to do some excavation that the excavation again, make some environmental impact. So these are the factors that has most influence most impacted environment rather than in SAPL. Just pretty much just straightforward: one truck, cement heaters, material lining. And that's it. We are not dealing with those big trucks or styrene or I mean these things. So this one is, that can be a reason why we have significant gap between SAPL and CIPP.

Brett Ekart:

So I'm super, super curious. Now, what has the feedback been from the DOTs after you have produced your results? Were they shocked? Did they agree? Did they disagree? This to me is like the probably, as much as it as important conversation as anything. Cause those guys, they're the ones funding the research, right to a certain extent? So they want to know like-

Dr. Ramtin:

Well, I told you I didn't include the environmental cost for them. So that's another interesting thing because we were discussing with my advisor and because they ask us to just focus on construction costs and environmental costs was something extra that I have done for my own dissertation. So this result is not going to go through the report that we are preparing for them.

Brett Ekart:

When do they get them?

Dr. Ramtin:

Actually, this portion should be cut. We may not want it to release the environmental portion for the report that we are preparing for them.

Dr. Ramtin:

We just, really is the construction cost, but for myself, I would work on that environmental cost and it is in my mind to publish some papers and maybe books based on it. Because as I said, I have 400 pages for environmental cost analysis. And this is out of a scope of the work that we needed to do for DOTs. So we may not release it for them.

Brett Ekart:

You guys went over and above the requirement.

Dr. Ramtin:

I mostly focused on construction costs and I did some analysis more than what I show you, for example, for each DOT, what is the lowest cost and what is the highest costs. For example, for Pennsylvania, let's say, I'm just saying something by myself. CIPP is the lowest cost and SAPL is the highest cost. How about the New York state, maybe an inverse.

Dr. Ramtin:

So all these numbers, all these comparison are based on the average cost of each diameter, regardless of location. If we account the location, the result is something else that I had in my chart, for example: CIPP, there is the location that they have the lowest cost for CIPP within that 7 DOTs. And where is the location that has the highest one? So those analysis are the ones that we have done for our report that we wanted to send to the DOTs. But again, environmental costs is just in the scope of my dissertation. Later on, for sure. Not do seven DOTs, maybe. I mean more than that seven DOTs, because maybe everyone in this industry that they are dealing with these three type of reline they may be interested to see the result of environmental impact.

Dr. Ramtin:

So your point is valid that people need to see the environment. And actually the objective of the research and my goal was to show the environmental impact, which has significantly, based on the result, significantly different, big difference. There, there is a significant difference between SAPL and CIPP slip line. Those decision makers, owners, contractors, not maybe contractor, but owners, DOTs, municipalities, those people need to, they may be interested to see the result of input for sure, rather than even those seven DOTs, but it's specifically for the research and for the research that you are saying that they funded, we may not include this one. This environmental impact analysis itself is a project.

Brett Ekart:

Oh yeah, no doubt.

Dr. Ramtin:

It costed me all of my time for two years. No one has done that before. I mean, we don't have any such study that focusing on these three types together, we may have, I found some, theory research that they focus on CIPP, but not the comparison. These comprehensive comparison between these two relines.

Dr. Ramtin:

So I think I asked you a question because you were supposed to ask them, if you add up those two figures together and I wanted to show you the proportion of environmental impact, this is another interesting thing that in smaller diameter, again, the whole thing is some of the environmental and construction costs. We can see there. The orange one is the environmental cost and the blue one is construction costs. We can see for all, for example, SAPL, CIPP, slip lining for small diameters, they consist, they have small impact to the total cost. I'm talking about the environmental cost, but each we go through the higher diameters.

Dr. Ramtin:

The larger diameters. In larger diameters we can see 54 inches, it comes to 40% rather than 11% or 8% in a smaller diameters. And if, as much as we go further and also in a slip lining the environmental cost, rather than SAPL, we can see in SAPL, environmental cost is always less than 10%. So environmental costs has not that much influence to the total cost in SAPL, but in slip lining and CIPP, we can see it goes through more than 10 percent. 17% in 16 inches for CIPP. For 19%, 15%, and 17% for slip lining in 72, 78 and 84 inches. And also for 108 inches, we can see that still, in very large diameters. Less than 10% of total cost is coming from environmental cost for SAPL.

Dr. Ramtin:

But for CIPP and slip lining, slip lining, it goes over 20% for nine inches. 22% of the total cost is environmental costs. For CIPP it goes more than almost 15% of the total cost is environmental costs. So we can see a significant portion of the cost, the total cost is environmental costs for CIPP branded for large, especially for large diameters. And I just put some observation in terms based on the result that we could see. The results show that the host pipe length, diameter, location, renewal material, and thickness were the key factors to construction costs. Material component, the volume of material, material transportation, project duration, and location and installation equipment where the main influencing factor to the environmental cost. Somehow I'm answering your question that yes, but here we can see that all the influence and the influencers, but which of them has most, again, it is in my dissertation and we can take a look at, to see exactly the proportion of each of the environmental emissions and environmental influencers.

Dr. Ramtin:

But these are the most key factors for construction costs and for environmental costs. Comparing environmental costs of CIPP and slip lining and the SAPL, SAPL we could see that has the lowest and CIPP has the highest cost. The 16 inch diameter is the threshold for changing environmental cost difference between SAPL and the CIPP method. That threshold is because at above 60 inches diameter, the environmental cost difference between CIPP and SAPL will increase by more than 50%. The difference, which is very important that 60 inches is a threshold that after that, the difference between SAPL environmental costs and CIPP environmental cost is more than 50%. So we need to take a look at if we wanted to do the relining more than 60 inches, we need to go through the details to find if it was to go for CIPP.

Dr. Ramtin:

We found that CIPP has the lowest cost, but it has more than 50% environmental cost rather than SAPL.

Brett Ekart:

So it goes back to the owner. If you're really concerned about the environmental impact, the environmental cost of over 60 inches, and you're trying to decide between CIPP and SAPL then that's a factor that needs to be taken into consideration. If it's strictly a dollar-for-dollar, cost-for-cost, the number-to-number, it's a CIPP job. And it makes sense.

Dr. Ramtin:

Again, in terms of environmental costs, four diameters between 78 to 108 inches CIPP and the slip lining are slightly the same and become twice rather than a SAPL. That's 16 inches CIPP getting bigger. The difference is getting bigger and bigger and larger, larger numbers. However, when we go through 78 inches to 108 inches is not even 50% more, it's twice CIPP and slip lining both are twice than SAPL.

Dr. Ramtin:

So again, the thing that you were saying that if it goes to owner, if they care about the environmental costs and environmental impact, they could see the huge difference in terms of environmental costs between 78 inches to 108 inches between CIPP and slip lining, which are pretty much similar to SAPL, which those two are twice than SAPL. And the difference between mean construction cost of slip lining and SAPL in 72 inches of diameter is 120 times more than that of 30 inches.

Dr. Ramtin:

Here's another interesting observation that not the cost, but the difference of mean construction costs is very tricky, not the main construction cost, not the difference between the cost of SAPL and slip lining. But the difference between mean construction costs, that difference in small diameter, which is 30 inches is 1/120, rather than 72 inches. In other words, in 72 inches, the difference between mean construction cost of CIPP and slip lining is 120 times more than SAPL.

Brett Ekart:

So essentially the bigger you go, the cheaper it gets or is there more specifics?

Dr. Ramtin:

Slip lining is more expensive. Excuse me, SAPL is more expensive. In large diameter. The difference between the cost is getting bigger and bigger and larger and larger as we go.

Dr. Ramtin:

And the last slide I think that I have here talks about the diameter of culverts, which makes a significant difference. As we saw in environmental costs and construction costs, it makes a significant difference for construction costs of SAPL and slip lining as increasing culvert diameter will make the slip lining more costly. Still slip lining is less than SAPL and CIPP, but as we go through the highest, the larger diameters slip lining gets more costly as well. And it can be concluded that many quantifiable factors impact SAPL, CIPP, and slip line in construction and environmental costs for large diameter culverts. So this is some overview of my dissertation. I try to touch all the results that I have had even though those results as is, they're not going to be published. They're not going to be reported, but it's already published and it can be, it can be found.

Dr. Ramtin:

It can be found for anyone that is interested to see the detail of the result of environmental costs or construction costs.

Brett Ekart:

Well, Ramtin, I feel like I'm eight times smarter than I was when I walked in the room. So I should say Dr. Ramtin as of December. So I appreciate you taking the time, walking us through. We are going to post the links to your research, to your paper. If somebody wants to get ahold of you, what's the best way to get ahold of you? Email, website, what?

Dr. Ramtin:

My dissertation, the thing that the whole paper that is included, all the results, construction and environmental cost result can be found in UTA website. And we are going to post a link directed exactly to these results and other papers that I have in Google scholar, if they just search Ramtin Serajiantehrani, my Google scholar. Again, we can put the link on there as well. [crosstalk 01:23:16] And also my LinkedIn is available. They can send me a message.

Brett Ekart:

Which is how I found you.

Dr. Ramtin:

The best way to find me is on LinkedIn: Ramtin Serajiantehrani and also email me also, they can contact me via email that again can be found in my LinkedIn as well.

Brett Ekart:

Thank you very much, sir. I appreciate it.

Dr. Ramtin:

Thank you. It was good to talk with you.

Brett Ekart:

Likewise, take care, take care. Thank you.

Brett Ekart:

America's aging underground infrastructure will need to be dealt with in the coming years, our mission with Reliant Unknown is to help individuals and organizations gain insight into the pipe, relining and infrastructure world, and help process the key decision realign or replace. Thank you for listening.